Weighing In (Updated)
A big debate, originating here, as to whether gaining weight after you get married is "false advertising" and a sign of depression and low self-respect.
"If I had been 160 pounds when we married that would [be] one thing. Then it would be totally unreasonable for him to want me to be 120 pounds. But it would be false advertising if he’d married his 120 pound girlfriend and ended up with a 160 pound wife."
More thoughts here and here. City Mama's take:
"The fact that there are people out there who dictate the way their wife's/partner's hair should look just boggles me. Oh, I know these asshole control freaks are out there, and I thank the universe everyday that I am not married to one of them. I mean, are there really are men (or women) out there who would be deeply disappointed—just crushed and devastated—if their long-haired partner suddenly cut her hair short? And the women put up with that bullshit?"
All of these posts found courtesty of Tertia, who has this to say:
"Then my neighbour said that she has a real motivation to lose weight in that her husband gave her a present for her birthday, it is a full wardrobe make over. But only if she loses 20 pounds. My initial reaction was WHAT THE FUCK! I would kill my husband if he did that. How DARE he have something to say about my weight. My neighbour has three kids, her twins are 22 months and she is hardly overweight. Perhaps he is just being supportive, or kind, or trying to motivate her, but I would have been pissed off."
One of our commenters reminded me of the interesting point: what if you lose a lot of weight in your marriage? I've known relationships where this has happened as well. Is that equally "false advertising"? What if your partner is attracted to a larger shape?
I personally think that equating weight gain to "depression" and "loss of self-respect" is demeaning, and exactly the kind of statement that makes me want to kick ass and take names. I want my partner to love me at any weight, to support my efforts at healthy living in a low-key and mutual way, and certainly not to bribe me to lose weight or ask me if I'm depressed every time I eat a cookie.
"If I had been 160 pounds when we married that would [be] one thing. Then it would be totally unreasonable for him to want me to be 120 pounds. But it would be false advertising if he’d married his 120 pound girlfriend and ended up with a 160 pound wife."
More thoughts here and here. City Mama's take:
"The fact that there are people out there who dictate the way their wife's/partner's hair should look just boggles me. Oh, I know these asshole control freaks are out there, and I thank the universe everyday that I am not married to one of them. I mean, are there really are men (or women) out there who would be deeply disappointed—just crushed and devastated—if their long-haired partner suddenly cut her hair short? And the women put up with that bullshit?"
All of these posts found courtesty of Tertia, who has this to say:
"Then my neighbour said that she has a real motivation to lose weight in that her husband gave her a present for her birthday, it is a full wardrobe make over. But only if she loses 20 pounds. My initial reaction was WHAT THE FUCK! I would kill my husband if he did that. How DARE he have something to say about my weight. My neighbour has three kids, her twins are 22 months and she is hardly overweight. Perhaps he is just being supportive, or kind, or trying to motivate her, but I would have been pissed off."
One of our commenters reminded me of the interesting point: what if you lose a lot of weight in your marriage? I've known relationships where this has happened as well. Is that equally "false advertising"? What if your partner is attracted to a larger shape?
I personally think that equating weight gain to "depression" and "loss of self-respect" is demeaning, and exactly the kind of statement that makes me want to kick ass and take names. I want my partner to love me at any weight, to support my efforts at healthy living in a low-key and mutual way, and certainly not to bribe me to lose weight or ask me if I'm depressed every time I eat a cookie.
posted by mo pie at 7:52 AM
14 Comments:
I think this debate has some sexist undertones. It seems it's always the woman who is expected to stay trim and pretty. Does the man have an equal responsibility to do this? Or is it okay if he gets fat as long as he is a good provider?
If the man is the one making the money, it seems he would have more leverage to say "I won't want you anymore if you are fat" because he will still be able to support himself if he leaves the relationship. Whereas a woman is less likely to be in a situation where she can leave her husband without financial repurcussions. It's not true in every case, just as a general trend.
My Future Husband aka Live In Boyfriend have actually discussed this because well since we met each other we both put on 30 lbs. but we are lucky in the fact that i am attracted to Fat Men as much he is attarcted to fat girls. we were both appaulled and disgusted by anna nicole losing all that weight we both thought she was fabulous when she had the weight now she just looks like a crack head with money nice clothes nice hair nice make up but too damn skinny.
but to my original point we both made the decision that being at a healthy weight (both of us) wouldnt kill us but we would both not find the other attractive if they lost too much weight.
we take pride in our size and find each other yummy because of it. he knows if he got some wild hair up his butt and got all skinny and disgusting i would prolly go find another plump and cuddly man and if i got all skinny and disgusting he would go find some plump and delicious girl.
this we know, we accept it, as we we say "this is what i bought"
There's a big difference between trying to dictate what your partner does/thinks, and telling your partner what you think. If I tell my wife how she *must* cut her hair, then I'm an asshole. If I tell my wife I *like* to see it a certain way, I'm just telling her what I think.
How can Tertia possibly suggest that her husband has no right to say anything about her weight? Who's controlling who here? Why is weight a magical taboo? Why should a husband be obligated to notice her hair changed or that she got a new pair of shoes, but forbidden from noticing that her weight has changed?
There is a large subset of women who claim to value honesty in men, yet expect us to lie to them anyway, because it might hurt their feelings if we didn't. These women want honesty, but only when it's convenient and doesn't threaten their self esteem. If my wife asks me if I think she's put on weight, and I say "Yeah, it does look like you've put on a few pounds." why should that be devastating to her? If I think she's putting on a lot of weight (or anything else for that matter), why should I not be allowed to tell her?
If the situation were reversed, I would be offended if my wife *didn't* tell me. I would respect her honesty, and value her opinion. If I get a bad haircut, I *want* her to tell me, rather than walk around looking like an idiot and be the only one who didn't know. If I put on weight, and she finds me less attractive as a result, I would expect her to tell me so. Isn't honesty a big part of what marriage is supposed to be about?
Tertia says that she would be "mortified" if her husband remarked on her weight. Why is her husband not allowed to express his opinion?
She admits that she'd take issue if her husband put on a lot of weight, yet feels justified in being mortified at the thought of him feeling the same? She appears to see the hypocrisy in this, yet has no problem spouting off an indignant "How DARE he..." Double standards suck.
It's not a matter of "owing" your spouse anything. You have the right to cut your hair the way you want, put on weight, get a 3 foot mohawk, shave your head, or do whatever else you want, regardless of whether your spouse likes it. However, you cannot demand that your spouse like it, and you cannot justifiably forbid your spouse from expressing their opinion on the matter.
It's probably best for your relationship if you like each other. Sure, there will always be things that each person may prefer to be different, and one can't go making demands that your spouse fully comply with your tastes. However, in the interests of furthering your cooperative, mutually beneficial arrangement commonly referred to as marriage, it's in both of your interests to do things to keep the other party happy and fulfilled. If that means not wearing a 3 foot mohawk, so be it. Nobody is saying you don't have the right to have one, just that perhaps it isn't the best idea. You can substitute 3 foot mohawk for weight gain/loss, grooming habits, a full body tattoo, fashion sense, or anything else, and the same arguments apply.
Sure, issues that might hurt someones feelings are usually best approached in a tactful manner, but if your self esteem is so lacking that you can't handle an honest answer to the old "Do I look fat in this?" question, it's not the spouse that has a problem, it's you.
I agree that the debate had sexism underlying it. I think that most of the people who were offended (or at least concerned) about the original post about "false advertising" were mostly concerned about the "advertising" part. Are we just products to be advertised, bought, and thrown away?
I am all about fitness and my boyfriend and I work out together, but neither of us freaks out if he runs one day and I don't or vice versa. Plus, although I love when he has a beard and I suspect he may prefer some style of my hair (he refuses to say any hairstyle looks bad), whatever we do, we love each other. How sad and shallow that first poster seems.
I found this whole discussion both intriguing and depressing, and agree w/Mo that probably the most depressing part was how many women equated constantly being tuned in to their weight with 'self respect.' Staying thin, unless you're a naturally thin person, takes loads of attention and energy that could be channeled into more productive things. I honestly think if women could break free of constant obsession with staying young-looking and thin, there would be a lot more of us in Congress.
Some of the comments I found most interesting were those from women who have made a trade-off - decided to put that energy and attention somewhere else, like into spending time with their families, and gained weight. I think deciding to put your energy into the thing that is most going to enrich your life is a tremendously self-respectful thing to do - way moreso than keeping your body thin.
I also think how much weight the weight issue carries in a relationship is telling about that relationship. Of the two most recent men I dated, the one could have gained 40 pounds, then rolled around in horse shit and sprouted tentacles and I would still have been deeply physically attracted to him. The other was perfectly nice, but because the emotional chemistry was not there, I would have been less attracted to him when his looks slid in one way or another.
Anonymous guy: if you want a good analogy for women's feelings about their weight, think about how sensitive many men are about penis size. Most men who are not hugely endowed want their partners to reassure them, either by saying "what do you mean? look at that bad monster!" or else "size doesn't matter - it's what you do with it." Is this sensible, in the strictest sense? No. Who has the 'problem'? The guy. But as a woman aware of how many guys are sensitive about penis size, I would never say "yes, honey, it is kind of small" and then congratulate myself for being honest. And I wouldn't rant about his insecurity on an online board.
Also, this whole discussion made me think of one of Andie MacDowell's best lines in "sex, lies and videotape": "Being happy isn't so great. I was happy once, and I got so fat. I must have gained 25 pounds. I thought John was going to have a heart attack."
Sigh.
MG
I found this whole discussion both intriguing and depressing, and agree w/Mo that probably the most depressing part was how many women equated constantly being tuned in to their weight with 'self respect.' Staying thin, unless you're a naturally thin person, takes loads of attention and energy that could be channeled into more productive things. I honestly think if women could break free of constant obsession with staying young-looking and thin, there would be a lot more of us in Congress.
Some of the comments I found most interesting were those from women who have made a trade-off - decided to put that energy and attention somewhere else, like into spending time with their families, and gained weight. I think deciding to put your energy into the thing that is most going to enrich your life is a tremendously self-respectful thing to do - way moreso than keeping your body thin.
I also think how much weight the weight issue carries in a relationship is telling about that relationship. Of the two most recent men I dated, the one could have gained 40 pounds, then rolled around in horse shit and sprouted tentacles and I would still have been deeply physically attracted to him. The other was perfectly nice, but because the emotional chemistry was not there, I would have been less attracted to him when his looks slid in one way or another.
Anonymous guy: if you want a good analogy for women's feelings about their weight, think about how sensitive many men are about penis size. Most men who are not hugely endowed want their partners to reassure them, either by saying "what do you mean? look at that bad monster!" or else "size doesn't matter - it's what you do with it." Is this sensible, in the strictest sense? No. Who has the 'problem'? The guy. But as a woman aware of how many guys are sensitive about penis size, I would never say "yes, honey, it is kind of small" and then congratulate myself for being honest. And I wouldn't rant about his insecurity on an online board.
Also, this whole discussion made me think of one of Andie MacDowell's best lines in "sex, lies and videotape": "Being happy isn't so great. I was happy once, and I got so fat. I must have gained 25 pounds. I thought John was going to have a heart attack."
Sigh.
MG
I've been reading this blog for a while and never posted, but I don't think I can let this one go by without saying anything. I can't even believe there are men and women out there treating marriage as though it were a consumer transaction! You did not BUY me when you married me, and I therefore did not advertise myself to you before hand. My future husband doesn't care if I gain weight (I';ve gained, lost, etc since we've been together) and I couldn't care less if he does. What are you going to do when you get to be 70 and can't prevent aging any more? Trade me in for a model with better advertising? Yes, we present ourselves to people in a flattering way, but the people who place being a size 6 above a mentally healthy and satisfying relationship should not be married in the first place and DEFINATELY should not have kids. How many more anorexic/bulemic/messed up about food in other ways young women do we have to have before parents start thinking their attitudes toward what their kids eat have HUGE impacts? Especially between a father and daughter, where the father is the primary model for men. Jesus, I can't believe this is even a discussion we are having.
Yeah, I really hope that it's not a "general trend" to have women financially dependent on men.
I also agree that a partner's weight gain (or my own) might be a cause for concern, and might of course be related to depression or illness, but the whole "let yourself go" phrasing and thinking just drives me bonkers.
And anonymous, I agree with you too. The idea of "false advertising" means that people can never physically change. What if they lose a limb in a rock climbing accident? What if their hair goes gray? I know those things are "not under their control" but it's a slippery slope.
Warning: novel-length comment coming up.
I think Shakespeare had it right: "Love is not love / Which alters when it alteration finds." OK, maybe if the person's personality changes for the worse. But looks? I'd hope by the time you were getting married, you'd have a strong enough bond that it could survive that sort of thing.
I agree that one's weight isn't necessarily linked to self-respect, and I'm quite uncomfortable with the notion that grooming is, too. I feel happiest in jeans and a T-shirt with my hair loose or simply tied back - that doesn't mean I have no self-respect, just that I'm happy to be low-maintenance. Fortunately my boyfriend thinks this is cute, but even if he didn't, I doubt I'd be able to change my ways that much.
I was also stunned by the idea that if your partner was depressed (whether or not this manifested itself in weight gain - and obviously it often doesn't!) that would affect how sexually attracted you were to them. Can I say, as one who knows, that it doesn't work like that? You can watch someone suffering terribly from depression (and be deeply affected by it yourself) and still fancy them like crazy. Which is pretty awkward sometimes...
One odd thing: although my boyfriend has never said an uncomplimentary thing about my body (and has been so discreet about what he thinks of my weightloss efforts that I honestly didn't know whether he was in favour of my losing or not) he's unwilling to believe that I might be as accepting as he is. He's terrified that his current antidepressants will make him gain weight, and that I'll go off him if they do. Which I won't, ever (what MG said about tentacles etc).
We're getting married in two weeks. I will be as thin as I've ever been since he met me. However, since he told me "not to waste away" the other day, I don't think false advertising really comes into it.
Here's what I think: except possibly in the throes of PMS, it is unreasonable to expect men to be psychic. So you have to make it clear what your attitudes are to "motivational" helpful comments (among other things) before you commit to someone. Obviously some women, bizarrely, don't mind them; but I think the ones who do mind them are in the majority. It's not as though you can be overweight and be totally oblivious to it, so why don't we just assume that unless you are doing something about it, you have a reason not to (such as "not enough time" or "not that bothered by it" or even "need to come to terms with it myself, and it's not really your business")?
And about the sexist overtones: I believe when a woman does this kind of thing, it's called nagging... why should the boys get away with it?
I used to feel really angry and defensive about this issue when I weighed nearly 200 lbs. Since I got down to 145 (where I was when I married) I think a little differently. My husband was always supportive, no problem there.
But at some point I decided I did NOT like being heavy, and it seems like it always got worse, the weight creeping up with the years. So I reached inside somehow and made up my mind, for the sake of my health, my dignity and my self-confidence, to get the weight back down. It took 2 years. I think that's the way it should be, inner-directed and not dictated by someone else, and gradual. And I don't think I merely internalized "society's" expectations.
I think people should try to keep looking as much like the person others know as well as they reasonably can. It shows your love for them to take care of yourself so that you are recognizable to them and healthy.
I admit it's an odd concept and I have trouble expressing it.
Twisty over at I Blame the Patriarchy (http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/03/22/hot-mama/) blogged about this today. She's an awesome read anyway, and her commenters are, too. Definitely worth checking out.
But what if you're in a lack-luster marriage AND suffering from depression AND gain weight as a result?
Because that's what's happened to me. My husband isn't pleased and I'm sure he's not attracted to me any more. I don't really blame him, even though I've only gained about 20# since we've been married. He married a fat girl, but I guess he does't like FAT girls.
I'm sorry, but 160 lbs. is not really "fat". I weigh 165 and everyone tells me I look great. Think of all the people who are REALLY fat - they would love to weigh "only" 160.
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